Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
[00:00:00] <music>
Annie: Hi friends! Welcome to another episode of That Sounds Fun. I'm your host Annie F.
Downs. I'm really happy to be here with you today. We have got a great show in
store.
But before we dive in, I want to take a moment to share about one of our incredible
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betterhelp.com/thatsoundsfun.
Intro: Today on the show I get to talk with my friend Andi Andrew. Andi is the author of
She Is Free, Fake or Follower. And her newest book, which just came out in
October is called Friendship – it's complicated. She and her husband Paul founded
Liberty Church in 201, and in 2015 She launched She is Free, a movement that
helps women encounter God and expand the kingdom.
Currently, Andi's life is focused on raising her four kids in Brooklyn, New York,
writing books, creating for her show and podcast called Coffee with Andi, it's so
great y'all, building into her church and traveling to invest in churches and lives all
around the world.
I wanted us to have this conversation right now before we get to Thanksgiving,
because a lot of us may be going home, a lot of us may be seeing people we haven't
seen in a long time, or having opportunities to gather with friends that we have
known for a long time or are newer—and friendship is complicated.
Andi's thoughts on friendship have really helped me and challenged me in so many
ways, and I think that you will feel the same. So I hope this is a really helpful
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
episode before the holidays arrive. I can't wait for y'all to get to hear her
perspective. So here's my conversation with Andi Andrew.
[00:02:27] <music>
Annie: Andi, welcome back to That Sounds Fun.
Andi: Oh, it's so good to be with you.
Annie: I'm just so happy to see you. It's very surprising how we don't run into each other as
much as I would have thought we did.
Andi: Well, literally... wasn't it in Pennsylvania?
Annie: Yes, at the Summit Conference? Yes. At She Is.
Andi: Four years ago, five years ago?
Annie: 2017. Yeah.
Andi: Okay. I love that you knew that.
Annie: Let me tell you how I know that. It’s which dude was in my life.
Andi: Oh! Okay.
Annie: That's how I know.
Andi: I like that. I like that.
Annie: That's how I know. Because I was like, "I remember what I talked to Andi and Joe
about, and I remember who it was." So that's really fun. One of the interesting
things about our job, because I don't know that people realize when all of our
co-workers are at work, we're never in the same city.
Andi: No. It's wild. No, never in the same city. And trying to remember, for me, it's
always like, "Gosh, did I... think I preached that message there. Why do I not have
a system for this?"
Annie: Do you not have a system for that?
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Andi: I am the worst.
Annie: Andi!
Andi: I know. So then what I end up doing is asking my friends where I'm going, I'm like,
"Hey, what's up? Do you remember what I did last time I was there?"
Annie: Okay, let me tell you my system. Do you teach off of paper?
Andi: They're all in my iPad. Yes, I used to do it on paper and then I shifted.
Annie: So are you in Notability? Or what app are you in?
Andi: I actually use Word like on my... because I can write on it. Do you write on it in
Notability?
Annie: Uh-huh.
Andi: Oh.
Annie: So whenever I do a talk, whenever... you know, so when a book comes out... what
our friends listening should know, when a book comes out, the next 10 speaking
events, they say, "Come talk about your book." And so we've listened to the Holy
Spirit, we make adjustments, but you kind of write a talk that you get to give a
couple of times.
Andi: That's true.
Annie: So at the bottom of the talk, I will put the date and the church name. So then when
I'm going back, I search the church name and I go, "Man, I've been there three
times and I told this joke two of the three times, don't do it again."
Andi: Don't do it again. Okay. I need to probably start doing something like that. I don't
even know why. But you know, I just have like, "Holy Spirit. I know you have
something new to say. But also let's not mess this up."
Annie: Yes, yes. So the fun part of this is a lot of our friends have been listening for a
while and are fans of you so they were with us when you were here a couple of
years ago. So we send out this email on Fridays called the AFD Week in Review,
and it gives people a chance to ask questions to the guests we have coming on the
show.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
One of the questions that came in for you is someone who listened to our 2018
episode, Episode 109. And she said, "It sounds like a rough draft of Friendship –
it's complicated. Because she's already finished the book. She's already read
Friendship – it's complicated. And she was like, "I feel like Andi was already
processing some of that." Is that true? How long have you been processing this idea
of friendship between women?
Andi: Yes. I think that's so wild. So I would say it's been about five years. And for me, a
huge part of it was this major crash that I had about five years ago where I realized,
wow, I am really horrible at this. And I am an adult, and I don't understand why I
can't do friendship well."
And it was where I had this series of friends... like all of these friendships like
burned to the ground. And my best friend of 20 plus years, we broke up. Like I kid
you not, there was a friendship breakup. We are reconciled and I can tell you right
now that hasn't happened with everybody else. But I was like, "Gosh, God, what is
my problem?" And I felt like the Holy Spirit just said to me, "Hey, Andi, you are
the common denominator in every relationship you're in."
Annie: Wow.
Andi: And so it was like this moment of ownership where I had to go back to move
forward and figure out what some of the issues were and why I operated from this
place, honestly, of codependency in relationships where I would carry stuff for
other people, I would own stuff for other people, all of that sort of stuff. So that's
like a very long answer to a short question. But yes, like two years ago, I was
definitely processing it.
I didn't really think I was going to write a book on friendship. But then when I just
went into this, I went, "Gosh, I think this could be super helpful for people." So
yeah.
Annie: The actual worst breakup of my whole life was my best friend. They are not even
on the same chart. And I've had my heart broken by men, and I've been the
breakers. I mean, I'm not like, "Guess what everybody it was just it." That sounds
terrible. But you know what I mean.
Andi: Yes.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Annie: I've had my heart broken in romantic relationship, not even on the same scale as a
friendship breakup. And nobody talks about it, Andi. You're the first person to write
a book that even touches on this that I've ever seen. I know because I've looked for
it.
Andi: Well, and you know what's funny is I looked for this book, too. And I think I just
had to fight so hard for my friendships and relationships. And I would say I still
am. I would love to say, as a 43-year-old woman with four kids, and one that's
going to graduate as of next year, you know what I mean? I would love to say, "You
know what? Nailed it. I'm so great at this now!"
But I still have to overcome so much to step in, have good boundaries, have
genuine, honest conversations. And some friendships that are totally unhealthy, all
of those different things. But I looked for this book too.
Annie: Because no one had told me how to survive. I mean, everybody teaches you how to
handle a breakup with a dude, no one tells you how to handle a breakup with a
friend. I'm in the same situation where we've reconciled and that does not always
happen. But we're in each other's lives again, but I mean, it was years of silence, I
mean, actual years, and the worst pain I've experienced. And the Lord really taught
me what I carried in that and what I didn't. And as with most painful things, it was a
gift too.
Will you talk to our friends who... I mean, I just would love to spend a few minutes
on this because no one talks about it, about how do we hold and manage the shame
we feel around a friendship breaking up? Because I felt shame. Did you feel
shame?
Andi: Yes, totally. Because there were people watching as well. And the wild thing with
my friend Tanya, which again, she is okay for me to give her name, she's in the
book, was that she never stopped going to our church. I mean, we pastor and lead a
church at present in New York City and beyond. But like we live here in New York.
And what was kind of wild at that time is that we had this separation, but she didn't
go anywhere, she didn't leave, people noticed it because they know how close we
were. And it was embarrassing.
And also at the same time, when you're in this point of leadership and people know
that you're friends, like leave the church. People are watching me. They're watching
me fail, they're watching me lead, they're watching me try to figure out what to do.
And yeah, there was absolute shame in that. And the biggest thing that I could do
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
and I guess this is it, I kind of alluded to it already, was just take ownership of my
side of things.
Annie: That's all we can do.
Andi: That's really all we can do. I had to stop trying to be my own PR person and
manage what people thought about me. Do you know what I mean?
Annie: Say it. Say it. That's right.
Andi: ...and just actually like do what was right in front of me and take care of my heart
and try to reconcile and make peace where I could. And where there was no
reciprocity, let it be. And not try to explain it to everybody or cover my own butt.
Even as I wrote this book, I had to hold back, "Holy Spirits like don't you dare
throw anybody under the bus, only yourself."
Annie: Right. Right. When we look under this bus, the only person under it is Andi
Andrew.
Andi: It better be. And so I think-
Annie: That's hard though.
Andi: Especially when I'm writing this chapter about navigating betrayal, like you can't
start making a list of all the people, which we all have. But it's radical ownership of
one's life. So that when you show up at the table in any relationship that you're in,
you're as whole as you can possibly be.
Annie: Talk to our friends who are in the middle. And I would say anybody in the middle
is the person that doesn't have reconciliation because you don't know if it's done
forever and you have no idea how the story goes if the person is still alive on this
planet. And even then, we don't have... I mean, we can. But the theology of eternity
for sure, for sure.
So the people that are in the middle who have lost a very dear friend, but that
person is not dead. So you're sharing a church, we were sharing a church, we were
sharing a house, we were roommates, and stayed roommates for months and did not
speak.
Andi: Oh, my gosh!
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Annie: Talk to the people who are in the middle. What do you do? What do you do when
you're in the middle and that person is still on... You're still on Instagram, they're
still in the neighborhood, they're still in your church, they're still your husband's
sister, or whatever. What do you do?
Annie: Okay, two things that I can think of, and that I want to share. The first thing is, like
I said, the radical ownership. I mean, the whole first part of this book is about
facing yourself. So it's understanding the wounds that you are walking in that you
need to have healed. And the second part is going to be reaching out for
reconciliation and making peace if that is possible.
So let me break that down a little bit. I would say about eight months ago, I had this
major crash where I had to really check myself into an intensive counseling. It was
phenomenal. So I want to just give this one little piece that was given to me to help
people understand how to heal from wounding because really what we operate from
are these false belief systems. That keeps us isolated. That keeps us... you know
when you create the whole picture, the whole story what they must be thinking,
what they... you know, you build this whole world that doesn't exist, when you stay
in your head for too long, you don't deal with it.
Annie: The stories we write.
Andi: The stories we write. So for me, it was this whole progression. So we all have
wounding. But then in the middle of that wounding, we believe a lie. That's where
the enemy loves to jump in, whisper a lie to us. Jesus is also there to tell us the
truth, but there's the wounds, then there's the lies.
But out of that lie, when you attach to it a false belief system, you start operating
from a false belief of "I don't know that women are trustworthy. I don't know that to
do this, that or the other thing." So from that false belief system, what do we do?
We build a stronghold around ourselves. And that strongholds can be... you pick
your method of self-protection, whether that is anger, isolation. We all have got
one, right?
Annie: Yeah.
Andi: From behind our little stronghold, even though the Lord is supposed to be our
strong tower, we start these vows where we're like, "I will never trust another
woman again. I will never trust a man. I'll never trust the church. I'll never, never,
never." And then from there, we operate from a false self and present to the world
what we think that they should see.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
So to have ownership in your own heart, you have to kind of go back, sit before
God and go, "Okay, that wounding in that relationship, that friendship, why am I
bleeding? God give me the truth. And what's the false belief that I've been
operating from? Can you give me a true belief system to operate from? What I've
been protecting myself with?"
And repent. Go, "I repent of using anger of isolation." And what vows have I said?
Renounce the vows. Like, "I renounce the vow that I can never have another good
friendship again." And then you'll find that you'll start operating from this place of
who you truly are.
So there's that heart part like taking care of yourself, but then being intentional.
Listen, I think the hardest part about some friendships is that open loop that may
never close. So I would say in as much power as it's up to you, reach out, text them.
I just talked to somebody even this week that said they knew that a friendship was...
kind of like they were dating. They knew it was like falling apart, and they reached
out and they were ghosted. That person never reached out back.
And I think there's going to be two sides to it. One is that maybe you're going to be
able to make peace. It doesn't mean that you're going to reconcile and be best
friends. But as much as it's up to you, make peace with all men and women, of
course. But have a conversation if you can, and touch base on things if there's
reciprocity. And then decide where the relationship is going to go from there or not.
And then the other side is, gosh, sometimes you just have to let go and forgive and
reconcile before God, but you're never going to be able to reconcile with that
person. So there's a tension in it all. But those are just the things that I keep doing.
So I hope that helps.
Annie: I have another friendship that ended. I mean, we all have lots of friendships that
ended.
Andi: For the last couple of years, too, I mean, a lot of changing. Hello, yeah.
Annie: I made a lot of mistakes in the friendship. And as I was trying to repair it, I was
doing what you're saying. I was calling, I was texting. And I would love for you to
speak to this as a pastor. Finally, a pastor who pastored both me and the other
woman texted me and said, "I think you've done everything you can do. You can
stop. You can stop."
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
And so what that said to me is, my friend was communicating with the pastor
saying this is too much for me, or I don't have that to give, which is fine.
Andi: Which is fine.
Annie: But I live in the constant tension of as far as I can see, that one is not going to fix.
So pastor us a little bit about that, about what do you do when there's one that you
could run into them at the grocery store, and you've tried or they've tried and it's
just not going to fix?
Andi: I think those are some of the hardest things. I love that you even brought up the fact
of ownership where you're like, "Look, I own some of the stuff."
Annie: Oh, yeah, that one was on me.
Andi: Honestly, sometimes, that's all you can do. But if it hurts too much for the other
person because maybe there was stuff that you owned in that and you went, "Gosh,
I hurt you in this, and I'm so sorry." But if it does become too much for the other
person and they're not ready to jump back in, then you do have to let them go and
let them heal and trust that God will do that while you are on your own healing
journey.
That's one of the biggest things that I learned too is that ownership factor is like
allowing... because there's two sides to that, too. I've been in relationships where I
have owned stuff, but the other person also let me own their stuff for them too. You
know what I mean? Like, "You go ahead and carry that for me as well." And I'm
like, "No, I can't."
Annie: You're like, "My sin is plenty for me."
Andi: "There's a lot over here that I'm trying to work out."
Annie: "My quiver is full."
Andi: Exactly. I even had to get to a place where I went, "Their issues are not my issues.
They're not for me to fix. They're not for me to carry." And I think that is a place
where you have to go and you have to surrender that. And that's difficult.
But that's also boundaries thing. If you do have people in your world that are... you
know, boundaries. We talk about this all the time. We've read Cloud and Townsend.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
But the more you dive into it, the more you realize, gosh, even in friendship, in any
relationship, you got to keep your yard clean and tidy, your boundaries up. But if
someone keeps knocking over your fence and going, "Carry this for me. You take
care of my mess," you go, "No, I really can't." And vice versa. If you're doing that
to other people, stop it.
Annie: I'm thinking about our friends that are listening that they're in the seat like my
pastor friend was. Or they're in the seat like you and I have both been in where two
of our friends are not getting along. Girl, listen, Andi. With as much as I talk and as
long as I've been a person, I've had every kind of friendship fall apart that you can
dream of. And I have one's work well and recover beautifully from it. But I've been
in situations where two of my good friends are not getting along.
And even I'm thinking about our friends who are raising teenagers, who have
teenage girls in their house that are not getting along with their friends. How do we
help lead people in those moments when we're not the one in the tension but two
people we love are? How do you not be a gossip? How do you not be stuck in the
middle? How do we do this well?
Andi: Well, I think that definitely comes back down to helping people understand
Matthew 18. It's like, "Hey, I'm not going to be your go-between." Because if you
do that, if you end up becoming the codependent person for both of them, you are
going to get walked all over, and they will never talk to each other.
And you have to go, "I just need you to know, I am friends with so and so and I'm
friends with so... Like you both know that I'm friends with both of you. But I refuse
to be the go-between. And I won't talk about your relationship unless you're willing
to talk about it with them. And so I think that that is a difficult place. But it does
become gossip, because we're like, "I just needed someone to bounce this off of."
I'm like, "Do you though?"
Annie: I don't know. One of the most convicting sentences anyone ever says to me is, after
they listen to whatever paragraph I have to say, for them to say, "Yeah, I mean, it
feels like you should probably just go say that to her." And then my stomach hurts
immediately. My stomach hurts immediately.
Andi: You're like, "Yeah, I know you're right. But gosh."
Annie: But gosh, I was trying to tell you so that you can tell me I'm right and she's wrong.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Andi: Yeah. I just think we've lost the art of that a little bit like over the last 10 years
with... and you don't want to blame social media for everything, and text messages.
Like honestly, it's kind of this weird reality that we put ourselves in. And so we
have to work even harder for real life in-person, face-to-face relationships. Like it's
just a reality that if we really want healthy relationships, there has to be a little bit
more give.
And so I think that is one of the healthiest things you can do is refuse to be the
go-between. That also may... I know that that's a difficult situation to be in because
that could break down your relationship with one or both of those people too.
[00:19:42] <music>
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Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
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And now back to our conversation with Andi.
[00:22:08] <music>
Annie: A couple of weeks ago, I said something ridiculous on Insta story, and then
someone made us a graphic where I said, "All it takes is a village and a ring light to
be who you want to be."
Annie: Oh!
Annie: I think it's very true.
Andi: Oh, it is!
Annie: I still stand by it. Right? All I need is my village and a ring light and I'm exactly
where I want to be. But one of the pieces of feedback I got is someone said, "I just
wish I had a village." Talk to our friends who if we said, "Man, it's hard to be in a
fight with my friends," they're saying to us back from the grocery store, or from the
car or from the treadmill, "I wish I had a friend to fight with. I don't even have a
friend."
Andi: I think what has happened over the last couple of years has been the solidification
of isolation and self-preservation. That is one of the biggest things that we have to
fight right now. I know people that are extroverts that now have social anxiety,
which is weird.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
I think what we have to do is go back to... what is it? Was it Joyce Meyer that
coined it? Like do it afraid. But I think that that is kind of the reality that we're at
right now is you're going to have to break down a barrier and you're going to have
to do something that even freaks you out. Whether that is, if you're a part of a
church community, joining a discipleship group, a community group, and you're
like, "I don't want to do this. I don't want to show up. I don't want to be this
consistent, because that means that I'm saying yes to showing up as something
every week." But honestly, that's the only way things are going to change as if you
do something different than what you're doing.
Maria Durso who is one of my mentors-
Annie: Oh.
Andi: I know. ...and mother's in the faith, she calls me once a week or texts me. She's like,
"Andi, oh, my gosh, the Lord, He's been speaking to me about you." And I-
Annie: Maria Durso being your mentor is like jackpot level.
Andi: Honestly. And she just came into my life at a time where I needed that. I needed a
mentor and a spiritual mother. And she's just been phenomenal. But she's this
woman... I mean, her story is wild. She could honestly not have good relationships
with women. Her mother died at birth, her father became an alcoholic, sent her to a
nunnery to be raised in Yonkers. She was sexually abused by the nuns and given
wine from a young age.
Even when she got saved as a heroin addict at 19, there was no women in the
church at that time that wanted anything to do with her. She became a pastor, had
no friends. But this woman goes first. This woman calls all the other women. This
woman creates spaces for other women. This woman makes friends.
And she could have every excuse to say, "I'm too wounded. I have too much pain
with women. I just wish I had a friend." But she makes the friends. And I think
that's the power of going first that we're going to have to break the barrier and step
out and do something that's maybe uncomfortable. And be that mentor, that friend
to somebody else, even if you wish someone else would do it for you. And you'll
find that then you start to attract like.
Annie: Our friend Mike Donehey was just on the show. People just heard him on Friday
before they're hearing you on Monday. And one of the things he talks about is that,
like, if you are longing for something, reach out and give it to someone else. And
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
that is the way to do it. So I'm just playing this. I'm like, "Andi, teach us everything.
Just keep teaching us everything. You're so wise."
So our friends who would say, "Yeah, Andi, I went to church and I was in the
women's Bible study, and nobody called me. I texted this girl I met in tennis, and
said, 'Let's get coffee,' and she ghosted me and never responded." How do we have
the guts to go again? And how long do we give up? When do we give up on trying
to make friends?
Andi: You know what? Maybe it's your neighbor, maybe it's not someone in church. I
think that's the thing, too, is sometimes be willing to look in other spaces than
where do you think the normal would be. Some of my sweetest, most beautiful
friends I've met on the schoolyard picking up our kids.
Annie: Yes! Yes!
Andi: And then just hanging out together in the park while our kids play soccer or
basketball. And I think that we have to just pay attention to that, too. But yeah,
we're going to get hurt. What is it? Michael Scott? Yeah, you better believe that. I
quote Michael Scott in the book where he's like, "I'm ready to be hurt again."
But I think that that's kind of the point of relationship is no matter what you are
going to get hurt again, you are going to get ghosted again. But I think that the pain
of isolation is greater than the pain that will come with messy, godly connection
with other people.
Annie: Wow.
Andi: So we've got to weigh up the pain factor. So I think that you just got to keep trying
again. And then also know when to stop with certain people too.
Annie: Let them go, yeah. I mean, every time I'm buying a new thread for cross stitching, I
talk to anybody else who's in the section.
Andi: I love you so much.
Annie: Right? I know. I understand I'm very outgoing as part of my body. But also the
other people in there usually aren't. You know, the cross-stitching community is not
full of extroverts as my experience. But what I think every time I'm standing there,
I'm like, "We've got one thing in common, because we're both buying the same
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
thread. So I want to know what pattern you're making. And I want to know..." So to
me, there are times like that that I overlook as genuine connection opportunities.
Andi: Absolutely. And I think sometimes we don't necessarily even see the friends that
are already in our world that we are maybe neglecting or not looking at, or
relationships that we could cultivate. I mean, I know this sounds funny to say, but
one of my favorite chapters that I learned so much was circles. The Chapter 8
where it's like, No, everyone cannot and should not be our best friend.
But as we look to Jesus, I think that was so helpful for me to realize He had his
three, He had his 12, He had the 72. The three were that intimate close circle where
He was vulnerable with them. My friend Irene Rollins says "Be authentic with the
many but vulnerable with a few. Vulnerability is that choice to let your guard down
and show people the reality of your fears, your hopes, all those things that you
could get wounded with because of them. Authenticity is just showing up and being
who you really are.
But I think Jesus had those people. He had the 12 that he was on mission with. He
had the 72 that he sent out. He had the multitudes that He was around. And I think,
as I'm paying attention to maybe, gosh, maybe there are some relationships around
me that I'm neglecting. Maybe there's people I'm ghosting. Maybe there's people
that have reached out to me and I didn't reach back out. And so I think being aware
of that, too. Because actually I realize part of my tendency can be that I can get into
this victim spiral. And I know you're a seven, right?
Annie: Yeah, of course.
Andi: I'm a four on the Enneagram. I think about myself a little too much sometimes.
Annie: But listen, seven and fours love each other because we have all the feelings. As we
grew up, the road diverged in the woods of how we dealt with our feelings. But we
have them all.
Andi: That's why people think I'm a seven too. And I'm like, "I don't know, maybe a
seven in hearts sometimes..." No. You know what I mean? So I think that what I
realized is, you know, I can get so introspective and the Lord's like, "Just look up to
your God. There are people around you that want to be your friend, could be a great
friend if you could invest in that."
Annie: The circle thing is really interesting to me, because I'm going to drop some
segments of people. Kind of tell us what wisdom would say about where they circle
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
up with us. Because I'm thinking, if the one thing you have in common is
cross-stitching or the one thing you have in common is the same elementary school
or the one thing you have in common is the same church, well, what if it's a
non-believer? What if it's someone who doesn't believe everything you believe
about God or the Bible or prayer? Or what if it's someone who is different than you
politically or different than you in what you believe about racial reconciliation, or
different than you about... For me, I'm a Georgia fan. I don't like the University of
Florida. What circle do the Florida people fit? No, I'm just getting.
Andi: No, that makes sense.
Annie: So talk through how we wisely put particularly with big disagreements like politics
or people who do not believe what we believe?
Andi: Well, I think it's actually important that we do have diversity in the people in our
circles too. I actually put together... I don't know if you've got to see it, but I put
together this graph for people in this. And I'm like, "Fill it out in pencil, it's really
important." In the book.
Annie: So people, once you get the book, it is page 158.
Andi: Yeah. And I think it's really important. Because what you realize is, yes, there's a
simplicity with how Jesus had His circles, but we live in a little bit more of an
interesting... not interesting. Sorry, Jesus. We live in a different-
Annie: Sorry Jesus. It's a little better now. I mean, there is air conditioning and Orien to
things which Jesus did not know about in His early life.
Andi: That's true. But what I realized too, for me, our circles are all going to look a little
bit different. And for me, I mean, I live in New York City. So no, there are not a ton
of people that are like, "I love Jesus." I have friends, a lot of friends that are
unbelievers that are in my immediate spheres that I'm in.
So I put at that center circle it was God, my spouse, and my children because
they're the people I'm around all the time. But then out of that, yes, there's your
three, your 12, and the 72, which really I call the community of believers. Because
depending on the size of church that you're in, that's usually the people that you're
on mission with. But I would say, even in the 12, look at how wild the 12 were for
Jesus.
Annie: Right.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Andi: I mean, you had Simon the Zealot. I'm like, he was probably the one that was
marching in all of the rallies and making things uncomfortable. He had Thomas that
didn't believe anything and was probably deconstructing his faith and like telling
Jesus, you know, "Prove it." You've got like Peter who was ruining everything all
the time and cutting off ears.
Annie: And Matthew who was a traitor and a rule follower. He and Peter could not have
been on different spectrums.
Andi: Yes. So why do we think right now, even in the church, even with the people that
were in a maybe a discipleship circle with, why do we think we're all going to land
on the same thing? The common denominator is Jesus. And so we have got to pay
attention to that. So I think we've got to look at that.
Because even with your family... so I even put a circle on here: trusted family.
Because some of your family is not trusted. So you may love them and show up at
Thanksgiving with them, but you don't trust them with your heart. But there are
some that you will.
And then there's neighborhood people and legacy people. I call them legacy people
because they're the people where you may be like my best friend that I grew up
with in Spokane, Washington. I see her once every 10, 15 years. And the moment
we sit down, it just is what it is. And it's beautiful.
So I think it's paying attention to that, that we actually as believers, if we're going
to live like Jesus, we need to leave room for people that drive us crazy, where there
is drama, or we have to face it, or we have to look at our own hearts and go, What
do I believe? And it's important that there is diversity in those circles, but knowing
the difference of what you need in each one is really important.
Annie: It's probably been 10 or 11 years ago now, someone here in town, a girlfriend of
mine said, "Who are your best friends?" And I was like, "Well, I mean, you. You're
like one of my very best friends." And she said, "I don't think your best friends
would ever know that they matter more to you than anybody else."
Andi: Wow.
Annie: I was really convicting. And so in my phone, much like your chart, in my phone
under favorites, I literally have, okay, these are my up close circle. These are the
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
most trusted non-Job friends. For me, that's one rhythm I have or one practice I
have that has helped me to know who gets all the stories and who doesn't.
Andi: I love that. That's the same for me. Isn't that interesting? My favorites are the
people that... exactly, exactly the same, that are my go-to people in my vulnerable,
trusted circle.
Annie: So if you and I are doing that, I mean, there's moments where I feel like I'm going
to hurt somebody's feelings if I take them off my favorites list. They never going to
know.
Andi: They don't know.
Annie: But why do we feel that? Why do we feel that pressure that everyone needs to be
our best friend and everyone needs to know everything or nobody gets to know
anything?
Andi: So for me, chapter one is called the Woman Wound. And I go there and I talk about
my relationship with my mom. And she allows me to go there. Because whether we
know it or not, our relationship with our mother affected us or their lack thereof.
And so I think for me, what I realized from a young age is I learned codependency
from my mom. And that was because of the pain she was walking through, I kind
of became her therapist, I became her counselor, I became her emotional mother.
And from a young age, I was learning things about her life and carrying them from
a young age that I never should have. Honestly, I shouldn't have known these
things, carry them. Fast forward into adulthood, that's where the problem came for
me is that everyone could be my best friend, should be my best friend. I was like,
"Yes. You need me?" "Yes." "Let me carry that. Oh, you need to talk?" "Yes." "Oh,
I'm available. Oh, I'm a pastor now. So everyone..."
Annie: So now I'm extra available.
Andi: I'm extra available. But then it's Jesus who literally rebuked me just through the
Scripture in the Gospels. As I watched Him, I went, "Oh, gosh, He must have
offended the 12... the nine that didn't get to be His three when He went up-
Annie: Right.
Andi: Think about that.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Annie: Yeah. That probably hurt Thomas' feelings that he wasn't Peter, John, or James.
Andi: He's like, "You didn't really die and rise again. Show me."
Annie: That's right. He's like, "Because a couple of months ago, you didn't invite me to
dinner."
Andi: Yeah. "You didn't invite me when you raised Jairus’ daughter from the dead. I
thought I had enough faith to be in that room."
Annie: Right. Wow, Andi.
Andi: And I think it's those things that we looked at. And that's where I stopped
apologizing. And I went, "I am going to hurt people's feelings." And I hate hurting
people. Like I hate it. More than anything, that's one of my... But that ends up being
that whole fear of man thing. I'm more afraid of what you say than being obedient
to what God is asking me to do. Or like letting everyone just have all of me. I'm
like, "It's not everybody's business in my life, the whole part of my whole life. So I
think we just have to get good at knowing that, yes, we probably will hurt people.
But then we also have to speak our expectations, right? So there's a huge part of
that, where it's like, unspoken expectations or where people have these needs from
us, unmet needs, and they want us to meet those needs. It's like, Hey, you kind of
alluded to this a little earlier with your friends that you just haven't been able to
reconcile with maybe yet, or I don't know where that will go for you. But how they
just weren't willing maybe to give those things.
And I have had to get better at going, "Hey, I've got four kids, and a husband and a
few friends that are really close to me. I love that you want to have coffee once a
month, but I just need you to know I'm not able. And I'm actually not willing to do
that because I'm only one person." And even though that may hurt somebody, I
would rather be upfront about that. Does that make sense?
Annie: Yes.
Andi: And so I think you just have to get better at that too. Or maybe even I've had
conversations where I was like, "Maybe I misunderstood your expectations. Could
you maybe share those with me?" And those are some of the conversations that I've
had with people I went, "Wow, I hurt you. Please forgive me for hurting you. What
were your expectations? Because I think I've misread that totally." So I've had to do
that even just recently with a really good friend.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Annie: It's so hard to go first. But you write about in the book, you talk about it with Maria
Durso. I mean, it is so hard to go first, and yet someone needs to. I wish my
coworker Ashley was in here. She has a great sentence about expectations where
expectations are only legitimate if they've been communicated.
Andi: Yes.
Annie: Other than that, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment because you
haven't communicated "Hey, I thought we were going to eat dinner every other
week. I thought we were going to, you know..." And then you go, "Well, no wonder
your feelings are getting hurt. I thought we were eating dinner once a month." So
I'm showing up half as much as you thought I was going to show up because we
had different expectations.
Andi: Yes, exactly.
Annie: Something I learned at On Site, like an intensive counseling thing you went to, at
On Site I learned... They said, "The only people who don't like your boundaries are
the people who like to cross them."
Andi: Yeah. Yes!
Annie: Right. So there are people who expect us to show up and be who... And we can't.
And they're disappointed or hurt or angry because they wanted to be on the other
side of a boundary that we just can't provide.
Andi: Yeah. I can't provide that for you, I can't give that time to you, and I'm so sorry. But
I think it's honestly the healthiest thing we can do. And our mental health will
suffer if we don't get good. Our mental, emotional, spiritual health, it all suffers if
we continually allow ourselves to be walked on and think that we can be
everybody's best friend, and be there for everyone. So we just have to get better at
it.
Annie: I feel like there's so much conversation about the Father wound because Jesus
called God His Father, and we are all made in the image of God so He is mother
and father. But the fathering heart of God seems to be brought up a lot more than
His mothering characteristics. And yet, no one talks about it, like except, again, I
needed a breakup book, you gave me a breakup book, I need a motherling wound,
heart of God conversation, and you're offering that too.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Talk about why no one talks about that? Why don't people talk about that as much?
And how does it serve us to really think about that for ourselves?
Andi: Do you know what's interesting is I don't know why people don't talk about that. I
think for me, what I realized, just in myself, again, maybe it's my foreness, because
I was like deep inside of my own thoughts. But really that five years ago that I was
talking about when everything fell apart, I realized, wow, this has to do with issues
with my mother and the way that I view other women in my life, the way that I
view women as trustworthy or not. And so I just had to go there with my mom.
And like I said, we've gotten this beautiful reconciled relationship. And I know that
that's not the case for a lot of people. Maybe you'll never be able to have that, but
we have been able to work it through together. And I do know that were created in
the image of God, man and woman. And so therefore it is important that we
reconcile this part of our relationship that we have with our parents, because those
little formation happens in our childhood. We all know that.
But the truth is there comes this point in our lives where—and this may sound
harsh—but we can no longer blame mom or dad. We have to take ownership of our
own hurt. I think that's where I got too with her. And I realized too even with my
mom, there's this one moment that happened where there was just another betrayal
and this breach of trust. And I called my mom and I was sobbing like a child. And I
just said, "I feel like this is your fault."
Annie: Wow.
Andi: I literally said that to her. And I'm FaceTiming her and I go, "You just lay things on
me that were just so heavy to carry, and I just take ownership of everyone else's
issues." And I'm sobbing. I'm expecting her to manipulate the situation or cry.
Doesn't cry, looks me in the eyes, and goes, "You're right. I am so sorry. I was
boundaryless and I hurt you." I started sobbing like deliverance happened in that
moment.
Annie: Wow.
Andi: You know what I mean?
Annie: Yes.
Andi: So I would say, for people that just maybe haven't addressed that or how their
issues with their mother are affecting the way that they look at life or look at others
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
or their belief systems to, with Jesus, go into a place where He can heal you in that.
You may never be able to have those reconciliation conversations with your mom,
but you can with God. You can go to an intensive, you can walk it through with
someone and you can be healed of it. And be aware of it. I think it's just an
important thing that we have to pay attention to.
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Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
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And now back to finish our conversation with Andi.
[00:45:17] <music>
Annie: How do we pray for friendship?
Andi: Gosh, I love that. But I think I feel like I'm a little bit of a broken record. I keep
coming back to, in a way, two things. I think for me, it's the end of Psalm 139
where it says search my heart Oh God, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see
if there's any way offensive in me, and then lead me in the way of everlasting.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
So I think no matter what I always come back to the issues in the matters of the
heart. And this is going to maybe sound harsh, but I think one of the hardest things
that I see as a pastor and as a leader is that it is very easy for everyone to blame
everybody else for their issues but never take responsibility for their heart. And I
have this weird... not weird. I have always since I gave my life to Jesus... gosh, how
many years ago now? I don't remember it's been a long time. That one day I'll stand
before the living God and I'll breathe my last and I will give account from my life,
not anybody else's. Not how anybody else hurt me, not how anybody else abused
me. But that I will give account for the tenderness of my heart.
I mean even in my devotional this morning, I was reading about the cross and I was
like, "Wow, how hard it must have been for Jesus to say, 'Forgive them, Father, for
they know not what they do'?" Because how I want to say it is "Forgive them
Father for they know exactly what they do."
Annie: They know exactly what they're doing. That's right.
Andi: So I think the way to pray is honestly on a daily basis render your heart tender
before God and allow any bitterness, unforgiveness, any pain just constantly go
there. And then the other thing is, is go, “God, will you reveal to me what you want
me to do? How can I reach out? Who can I encourage? Who can I text? Do you
want me to throw a party at the house even though I hate parties and I'm scared?”
You know, just invite Annie. If she comes, everything will be fine.
Annie: Bring me a cross stitch pattern and we've got it.
Andi: But I love that you're into cross stitching and you're saying like that's like an
introverted crew. But maybe you just need to gather the introverts. I don't know.
Annie: Yes, yes, 100%.
Andi: Because you know how to hang together. So I know it sounds over simplistic, but it
is over a period of time, I have done things that have made me super nervous. I'm
an extrovert and an introvert and ambivert. I'm both. And so I just have to balance
my energy and figure out where to do that. But I think there's the ownership before
God and then there's the intentionality of doing everything that's in your power to
create spaces, make connection, cultivate relationships. So...
Annie: It is a gift to become the kind of person that's good in a friendship. Like it's a gift to
yourself as much as anybody, right? I know you say that we say a lot to men and
women who aren't married yet, like, look for the spouse you're looking for, but
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
become the spouse you want to be now. Go ahead. And I would think, you know,
become the kind of woman that you want to be in a marriage. I would say the same
is friendship true, right? Like become the kind of woman or man you want to be in
friendship, and then watch God bring you healthy friendship.
Andi: It's so true. I think too the joy is getting to a place where you're not in friendship
just for yourself, but you're in it because you want to believe in and love the other
person. There's this quote by a guy named Bob Buford that says, "My fruit grows
on other people's trees." I mean, the final chapter in the book is becoming spiritual
midwives. And I'm obsessed with midwives and call the midwife...
Annie: It's already written down. That is the next thing I was going to say to you is please
talk about spiritual midwifery because I love it.
Andi: Well, I think for me that hit me. And I hadn't necessarily heard that phrase before
but as I... I don't know how you write. But a lot of times what happens is that God
will just give me chapters, I'm like, "That's wild." Like the whole chapter outline,
and then I'll just start to flesh it out. And becoming spiritual midwives was one of
them.
But I realized a gift on my life, and something that I love to do is really encourage
other people, open doors for other people, cheer other people off. But to get there is
quite a journey because... and even to stay there. Because to cheer somebody else
on and really believe in them, what if they become greater, do greater, do better
than you?
Annie: Right. You got to watch them exceed you.
Andi: Yeah, exceed you. And I think that true friendship is a place where you can see
your friends exceed you but you encourage them. And fruit grows on the trees of
their life because of the seeds you've sown into them. And I think it's really
important.
And I love even the midwives that birthed Moses. That whole story of those
women who defied the odds and went, "No, we're not going to do what you say we
should do. We are going to birth life." I love what it is for us to birth the dreams of
others. And it's really important. And it stops us from thinking about ourselves all
the time.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
That's kind of the goal truly is if you're not just getting into friendship just all about
yourself, but to go, "Gosh, who can I believe in? Who can I champion? Who can I
release? Who can I cheer on?"
Annie: Okay. So talk about spiritual midwifery or genuine being a midwife if you are
infertile or being a bridesmaid when you are standing at your best friend's wedding
and you want to get married too, or their husband got the job that your husband
wanted, or the house. I mean, it is unlimited.
Andi: On and on it goes. Yeah.
Annie: Will you talk about the power of stepping into friendship with someone who gets
the thing you want. I think that is going to be one of the greatest measures of your
security in God and your trust in Him. I know that I have had those moments where
jealousy has arisen in friendship, and I was like, "Wow, you got that. I wanted that.
Oh my gosh, oh." Like I said it out loud.
And often what I'll need to do is out loud confess that to somebody else because I
don't like it. I hate it. But I like the taking the power out of that ugliness in my heart
and saying it out loud. So, often, that would be my husband... Don't say it to the
person. Literally, cheer that person on.
But it’s to be able to go, "Hey, I need to confess this sin that's in my heart that I am
jealous, and I have envy and I want what they have." But honestly, I didn't want to
show up to their party. I do want to show up to their engagement party. I do want to
show up to—you know what I mean?—I got the job party, whatever. I don't know.
Do people do that?
Annie: Of course. Baby showers, wedding showers, all the stuff.
Andi: All of the stuff for you long for it. And I think the greatest thing that we can do is
keep showing up. But confess the sin to somebody you trust and to God, and then
keep showing up. I would love to share this too. And I know that she wouldn't
mind.
Tanya, who is the one that's been my friend for 23 plus years, we're the same exact
age, she's never been married and she doesn't have any children. And there have
been many times where, you know, it'd be easy for me to go, "I have four kids and
I'm married, and I'm this and the other thing. We can't be friends because we're not
on the same page."
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
We have worked for this. I have held her in my arms as she sobbed and longed for
things that I... I can't make her a fake or a false promise either. But I get to hold her.
I get to love her. I get to show up for her. I get to believe for her. I get to have faith
for her when she doesn't have it anymore.
And I think that's what a midwife does, too. As a midwife, when it feels like you're
only birthing death, there's still a tenderness for there to be grief, for there to be... to
hold space for people. And I think we have to get good at both end of those things.
Annie: Yes. When people have done that for me, when they have loved me and cheered for
me... Well, let's just be very honest, Andi. A lot of people are going to assume that
the main thing I'm talking about is when I'm on the side of being the not married
person. Right? Like when I'm watching my friend... and that has happened a ton.
I've been an adult for 20 years. Everybody's married.
I mean, I've been a bridesmaid almost 30 times. I get it. I get it. But also, I know
that there are times where I'm the one who gets the speaking of it that one of my
friends wants, or I'm the one who gets the other thing that one of my friends wants
or the someone wishes they drove a Toyota Rav4. Why? I don't know. But do you
know what I mean? Like, I can name people that I have so much respect for
because of how they loved me when it was hard. And I knew it, right? I mean, you
had to experience with Tanya when you got pregnant again.
Andi: And you don't want to feel guilty. You want her to celebrate with you. But you also
were aware of the nuance layers to this complication in the friendship that you want
to both acknowledge but still love each other. And that's the thing. Like I'm her
person. So if anything happened to her medically, I'm her person. You know what I
mean? So those sorts of things where I even realized my role in her life. And again,
that's why I don't have a ton of time for like 50 close friends. No, because-
Annie: No. I can't give this to 50 people, I have a job.
Andi: No.
Annie: Nobody's paying us to be professional friends.
Andi: Yes, honestly.
Annie: Right.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Andi: So I think it's just really important to recognize, speak to, acknowledge the nuance
but still choose one another, choose to love one another, choose to be there for one
another.
Annie: I think the other gift of the circles you created is if one of my up close three has a
wedding shower, baby shower, husband job, did a celebration, there's a "no choice"
clause in my life of "you show up." But when you get to the 72, you can say, "Hey,
I've got boundaries here that say that because today is my parents' wedding
anniversary and because today I woke up and I don't like any of the clothes I put
on, I'm going to call one of my three and tell the truth. But I'm not going to go to
that thing today. Aren't there times where we can say no?
Andi: Yes, 100%. Because I think, for me, again, I had to learn that the hard way. We've
been pastoring here for 11 years. So when we started the church, yes, we were
almost doing everybody's weddings for that first year or two, because it wasn't like
there was a ton. But if those people met in church, and we were their pastors, we
did their weddings.
But then you plant another community that has pastors and people are still going,
"Hey, will you do my wedding? Hey, will you come to my baby shower? Hey, will
you..." I was like, "I'm going to die." And so we had to start even telling our
church, "Hey, our first ministry is to our family and we want our kids to love the
church and love ministry. And so therefore you're going to hear us say no to you."
So we had to establish that from a pulpit and from just a cultural thing that people
understood you are the body of Christ, take care of one another. It's not just our job.
We're just leading the church here but we're in this together. So there you go.
And I think that the same applies in understanding your circles. That there are
people that of course, they're going to want you to come to their things. And that's
so lovely, but no, you cannot go to all of it, and it is okay to say no. And try to
RSVP and be one of the first to RSVP instead of waiting till the day before because
you're afraid that you're rejecting going to their party will hurt their feelings. Do it
when it comes.
Annie: Yes, when you know.
Andi: And just write a little note that says, "Hey, thank you for asking me to come. I'm
just not able to make it that day." And you don't have to tell them why.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Annie: You're telling the whole truth. "I am not able to make it today." You aren't able to
make it.
Andi: Do you what? Because you may want to be in your pajamas the whole day.
Annie: That's right. That's right.
Andi: And that is okay.
Annie: I think the level of commitment to your friend is the level of entering into your own
pain and disappointment that you need to show up for it. So if it's one of my three,
that is the deepest commitment, therefore, my deepest willingness to step in.
Andi: Yes. Even for me this fall I had to bend over backwards in a season... it was travel
season, kicked back up, because we were no longer on lockdown. So I'm like
somewhere every weekend. And my two closest people, one of them lost their
mother, the other lost their father a week apart. So I was flying all over.
And thank God for my husband who's like, "I got the house. I got the kids." He was
home; he wasn't traveling. But I was exhausted but they needed me. They're
literally my people. And I was like, they get my Yes. And my husband's like, "I
understand." Even my babies too get that. And that's what I want to model to them.
It's like this is friendship. This is what you do.
Annie: I clearly remember my mother having a friend—I was probably middle school,
probably late elementary—who was dying of cancer. And I remember my mom
going over and changing your bandages and taking food. And I just remember so
clearly what that modeled to me. She didn't take me with her. I wasn't part of it. But
I remember I'd get home from school and she would go and come back. But I
remember my mom modeled that friendship to me that did not require her to be
with me. Right? Like she had to leave me to go be the kind of friend that I learned
to be from her.
Andi: I love that. That's beautiful. That's encouraging to me as a mom.
Annie: Yes, yes. That's why I'm motivated. I was like, "Yeah, that's exactly what my mom
did. My mom went when her friend needed her." And that changed me in a good
way. So you're doing a good thing for your people.
Annie: Andi, this is on me. We haven't even said the book title. We just jumped in.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
Andi: Oh, that's okay.
Annie: Friendship – it's complicated, which is the theme of what we've just discussed. So
you go so much deeper in the book and to so much of it. So I can't wait for people
to get to read it. Is there anything we didn't talk about that you want to make sure
we cover?
Andi: Oh, no, honestly because we could talk all day. So just get the book, everyone.
Annie: Yes, we can talk all day.
Andi: Yeah.
Annie: Oh, I just think the world of you. Thank you for making time for this.
Andi: I am so grateful for you.
Annie: The last question you always ask, as you know, because the show is called That
Sounds Fun, tell me what sounds fun to you.
Andi: What sounds fun to me, oh my gosh, I would love right now to jump on a plane and
go to Europe with my family and go to the... I don't know why-
Annie: What country?
Andi: What country? Italy always. Pizza why.
Annie: A call of the pizza?
Andi: It's the pizza. It's the carbs that feel like they're not killing you because they're
actually ancient grains.
Annie: Yes. Because they made them four months before we got there. Yes.
Andi: Literally. And they've been there since Jesus.
Annie: Yeah, I know.
Andi: And so I think just going there, going to the Amalfi Coast or Capri and hanging out
with my family. That sounds fun. And also can I tell you something really funny?
We did take my youngest son to Italy. All four of them, we took them. But my
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
youngest is the only one that was born in America. He was born in Brooklyn,
which we have two of the best pizza places right on our street that are like-
Annie: Where were your other three born if they weren't born in America?
Andi: Australia. My husband is Australian. So we-
Annie: I was like, "Andy, what story are you hiding from us?"
Andi: Yes. So I'm hiding a part of my life. But no, no.
Annie: So the best place is in Brooklyn.
Andi: Like honestly the greasy slice and then the famous slice. It's on Netflix. And it's so
delicious. We're in Italy eating some of the best pizza. And every time we get on,
he's like, "Oh, I still like Giardini's better. We're just like, "You are truly a Brooklyn
boy. You were born and raised here that you are so loyal to your Brooklyn pizza."
He's the one that tells people, he goes, "Hey, I'm Sam. I'm a seven wing eight." And
I'm like, "How-
Annie: My guy. Me too. Me and Sam are about to take over the world and everybody's
going to love us for it. That's the difference with a seven wing eight and eight wing
seven.
Andi: Yeah, it's true.
Annie: I love it. Sam, my guy! Andi, you're the best. Thanks for being a good friend and
modeling good friendship and then teaching us about it in a book. I'm really, really
grateful.
Andi: Thank you for this time with you. I love you.
[01:00:59] <music>
Outro: Oh, you guys, don't you just love her? She's the best, and so helpful. I mean, as we
talked about in the show, friendship is so complicated, and we don't have a lot of
people who are leading the way and telling us how to do this better. So I'm just
thankful that Andi has stepped into that role. And I'm telling y'all, be sure you grab
a copy of Friendship – it's complicated. You can get anywhere you love to buy
books. And please go follow Andi, tell her thanks for being on the show and how
much today's episode meant to you.
Episode 346: Andi Andrew That Sounds Fun Podcast with Annie F. Downs
If you need anything else from me, you know I'm embarrassingly easy to find.
Annie F Downs on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. All the places you may need me,
that's how you can find me.
And I think that's it for me today, friends. Go out or stay home and do something
that sounds fun to you. I'll do the same. today. What sounds fun to me is we're
going to dinner for another friend named Annie's birthday tonight and I'm excited
to celebrate her. So that should be really fun.
Have a great couple of days, friends. We'll see you back here on Friday with our
very special episode, a Q&A about fasting, the spiritual discipline of fasting. So get
ready. It is a good one. We'll see you on Friday.
[01:02:09] <music>
